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on this episode of skeptic Oh Alex talks

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with Robert Mays about his commentary

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Esquire article on Evan Alexander

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distorts the facts tell us what the

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rainbow thing is all about and then tell

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us what you found out in the book on

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Sunday morning according to the story

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dr. Alexander wrote his sister Phyllis

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and his mother Betty were coming into

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the hospital and saw a perfect rainbow

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and they felt that this was a fine

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look districts been asked a

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meteorologist whether there could have

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been a rainbow then and the

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meteorologist said well the day was

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clear so there couldn't have been and I

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said well wait a minute two people said

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they thought so I called Phyllis

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Alexander and she said definitely we saw

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a rainbow mother betty was remarked that

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it was the perfect rainbow they talked

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about it and just to add a little tidbit

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that you talked about in your article

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that I thought was great and it's real

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the real kind of journalism we would

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have liked to have gotten from Esquire

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is so you not only talked to these

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eyewitnesses which he did not but they

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also had evidence because it was such a

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spectacular event that they had written

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an email they had email documentation

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that when they came away that day from

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the hospital they wrote someone an email

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that wow there's this great rainbow stay

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with us

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welcome to skeptic aware we explore

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controversial science with leading

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researchers thinkers and their critics

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I'm your host Aleksic Harrison on this

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episode of skeptic oh we're going to

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take another look at the ebon Alexander

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proof of heaven controversy that stirred

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up and before we get started I want to

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step back and say that this if you've

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been following this show is a

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reoccurring theme and that is the rather

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obvious imbalance there is in the

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scientific media and really I guess you

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could say the serious media if you get

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past the the Oprah's and the feel-good

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people if you get down to the serious

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media there's a real bias against

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anything that links to the spiritual in

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a scientific way so the near-death

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experience science that we talk so much

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about on this show anything paranormal

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or parapsychology anything like that

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you'll find as we've demonstrated over

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and over again on this show not only a

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bias but a willingness to misrepresent

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and distort science if it achieves the

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desired end and the desired end in this

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case is clear it is to prop up this idea

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that you are just your brain nothing

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more that's what drives all this and as

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crazy as that proposition is and as

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ridiculous as that sounds that someone

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would continue to promote that in face

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of all the evidence against it that

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seems to be what we keep encountering on

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this show as we just sort through the

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facts so with that I think we can add

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this well-done bit of research by an

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independent team of Robert and Suzanne

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Mays who read the Esquire expose on Evan

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Alexander's proof of heaven book and

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said wait a minute that doesn't add up

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let me go do my own journalistic

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investigation so here's my interview

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with Robert Mays and we can see what

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he's found today we welcome Robert Mays

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- skeptic Oh Robert along with his wife

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Suzanne have been longtime researchers

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and near-death experience in

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consciousness studies they've published

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quite a few papers and have done

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presentations for both the

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International Association of near-death

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studies conference and the well-known

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science of consciousness conference in

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Tucson Arizona so anyone who's familiar

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with this field very well might have

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bumped into the work of these two very

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interesting and excellent near-death

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experience researchers they're here

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today to talk about a new article they

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just published titled Esquire article on

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Evan Alexander distorts the facts in

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which they tell us about their

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investigation into the near-death

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experience account of Harvard

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neurosurgeon Evan Alexander who last

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year published a blockbuster bestseller

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book titled proof of heaven a

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neurosurgeons near-death experience and

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journey into the afterlife so with that

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I'd like to introduce you to Robert Mays

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Robert thanks so much for joining me

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today on skeptic oh yeah thank you glad

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to be here well great you know before we

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dive into this article that you've

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published on dr. Evan Alexander's case

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and then the book and the controversy

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that stirred up around that I thought

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maybe you could tell us a little bit

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about the research that you and Suzanne

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have done you know checking out your

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website there's a lot of stuff that you

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guys have published in this field tell

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us a little bit about that well we have

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a basic theory based on the near-death

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experience that the mind consciousness

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person's consciousness separates from

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the body and a near-death experience and

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operates independently of it and of

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course at the end of the near-death

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experience rejoins the body this isn't

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something that you've just kind of

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dreamt up or anything it's just a

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compilation of a lot of research and you

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just kind of present your case and I

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think what I've seen you do a very fair

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job of saying hey doesn't the evidence

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point there you do some great stuff on

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the phantom limb phenomena which is a

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well-known medical phenomena that when

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an amputee loses an arm or a leg they

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can still have sensations down there and

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and you question in a very scientific

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dollar leeway whether or not some

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research points to that as being further

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evidence of this separation between

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consciousness and brain function right

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right exactly the phantom limbs they are

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a region where the limb was that still

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has it's a region of consciousness so we

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call that a mind to limb that's one of

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the pieces of evidence that we use also

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a lot of neurological evidence that that

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we use because the if you look at

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neurological phenomena from the point of

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view of well could this be a mind and a

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brain operating then a lot of things

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start to make a lot of sense for example

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Benjamin Libet did quite a number of

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studies where he showed that mental

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events become conscious only when

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there's a sufficient electrical brain

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activity otherwise they remain

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subliminal and and of course

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neuroscientists know that but if you

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think about well it requires a certain

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amount of electrical activity for there

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to be forms of consciousness in in the

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mind then that makes that makes a lot of

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sense so so we use both neurological

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phenomenon

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phantom limb phenomena and the NDE

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phenomena one of the reasons that I even

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brought up the broad research that

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you've done into consciousness in

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near-death studies is that III think

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that plays an important part into this

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story we're about to tell about dr. Evan

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Alexander and that is that you have done

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near-death experience research you've

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read many of the dozens and dozens of

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scholarly books hundreds of papers

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you've met a lot of these people at

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conferences interacted with them on a

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professional basis I guess the reason I

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keep hounding on that is I want to go

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back a little bit because I had a chance

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to interview dr. eben Alexander in

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November of 2011 before he had written

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the book and I thanked the listeners of

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skeptic oh who alerted me to this guy

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said hey here's this guy neurosurgeon

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from Harvard

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had this brother incredible near-death

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experience you think she'd talk to him I

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was like wow this is great

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but from the beginning my thought was

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hey great another fantastic near-death

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experience account manely didn't take it

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as being that out of the ordinary or

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unusual so I guess I was surprised when

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the book came out a year later and there

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was just this backlash against Alexander

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as if this was the first near-death

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experience account that had ever come

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out or as if there wasn't a substantial

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body of research to back up the reality

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of this phenomena and I kind of felt

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from the beginning that it was much more

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of a focus on attacking this one person

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than attacking the larger body of

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near-death experience research did you

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have any similar thoughts for that

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Robert did you see it differently when

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his book book first came out this is a

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kind of pattern I think that skeptics

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have they will take the particular

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phenomenon and say well that's just an

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anecdote and they don't look at the

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whole picture of near-death experience

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research and see that there are patterns

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I mean this happens all the time

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when when people claim that you know

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some sort of neurological phenomenon

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explains near-death experiences because

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I'm going to take it back kind of one

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step further because when Evan Alexander

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comes out with this book before actually

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the book even comes out there was a

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Newsweek magazine article and he was on

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the cover of it and I think that really

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riled up the scientific atheistic

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mainstream media but maybe for a reason

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that is somewhat justified because let's

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also be real - you know here's a guy in

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eben Alexander who was right guy at the

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right place has this amazing story gets

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this really substantial book deal and

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you can just imagine you know they bring

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him in and they say okay buddy here it

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is here's your editor

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here's your marketing guy here's your

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media guy we're gonna get you on the

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Today Show all that other stuff and by

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the way here's the title of your book

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proof of heaven you know which really

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kind of sticks it to the atheists right

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though the scientific folks are fighting

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this religious culture war and here's a

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guy coming out with a book title proof

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of heaven you've got to know fairly or

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unfairly they felt a pretty strong need

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to strike back and they did it in the

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old time-tested way of if you can't

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attack the evidence you know attack the

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person and that's what I think is going

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on here but I think there was I think

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that title proof of heaven did kind of

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rile those folks more than than even

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usual in this case yes I agree with that

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well then let's go ahead and go forward

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one additional point I guess I wanted to

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bring up on that is because when the

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book did come out one of the first guys

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who jumped forward and really led this

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charge of attack from the science crowd

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atheist crowd was Sam Harris and we I

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actually had an email exchange with dr.

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Harris that I think is pretty revealing

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because he came out and immediately said

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I don't even know how he could kind of

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back this up but he did he wrote this

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scathing review and basically challenged

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Alexander's integrity to your point

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Robert it's the kind of talking points

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thing he gets those talking points out

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there that we will see repeated over and

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over again he it claims that his account

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wasn't factual he's basically calling

276
00:12:15,499 --> 00:12:11,490
him a liar and he does all this before

277
00:12:18,019 --> 00:12:15,509
the book is even published so I sent an

278
00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:18,029
email to dr. Alexander and he was nice

279
00:12:24,799 --> 00:12:20,970
enough to respond and I wanted to read

280
00:12:27,799 --> 00:12:24,809
for you the response that dr. Alexander

281
00:12:30,350 --> 00:12:27,809
published because I think it also plays

282
00:12:32,329 --> 00:12:30,360
into the next part of this story that

283
00:12:35,059 --> 00:12:32,339
we're going to get into which is the

284
00:12:37,910 --> 00:12:35,069
article that you and Suzanne wrote where

285
00:12:41,210 --> 00:12:37,920
you really investigated these claims

286
00:12:43,940 --> 00:12:41,220
further but here's what dr. Alexander

287
00:12:47,629 --> 00:12:43,950
wrote in response to

288
00:12:50,569 --> 00:12:47,639
sam Harris's opening salvo in this

289
00:12:53,540 --> 00:12:50,579
battle of whether or not this near-death

290
00:12:57,410 --> 00:12:53,550
experience account is really factual or

291
00:13:00,740 --> 00:12:57,420
not he writes of course it was premature

292
00:13:03,050 --> 00:13:00,750
for sam harris to speak out based on the

293
00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:03,060
Newsweek article he needs to at least

294
00:13:07,730 --> 00:13:05,370
read the book if he wants to avoid

295
00:13:10,220 --> 00:13:07,740
making embarrassing statements that he

296
00:13:12,410 --> 00:13:10,230
later regrets a nice way of saying he's

297
00:13:14,269 --> 00:13:12,420
totally full of crap but anyways he

298
00:13:16,220 --> 00:13:14,279
continues and here's the medical part

299
00:13:19,069 --> 00:13:16,230
that I think plays into the rest of the

300
00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:19,079
story we want to talk about the severity

301
00:13:24,769 --> 00:13:21,810
of my meningitis and it's complete

302
00:13:26,689 --> 00:13:24,779
resistance to therapy for a week should

303
00:13:30,319 --> 00:13:26,699
have eliminated all but the most

304
00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:30,329
rudimentary of conscious experiences and

305
00:13:35,329 --> 00:13:32,730
then he goes on to list a bunch of

306
00:13:37,699 --> 00:13:35,339
medical data that I don't really know a

307
00:13:40,340 --> 00:13:37,709
lot about but I think other people in

308
00:13:42,740 --> 00:13:40,350
the medical profession would understand

309
00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:42,750
he talks about his white blood count

310
00:13:50,509 --> 00:13:46,170
being extremely low he talks about bands

311
00:13:53,930 --> 00:13:50,519
of toxic granulations being at a level

312
00:13:57,350 --> 00:13:53,940
that is very very worrisome and in

313
00:14:01,579 --> 00:13:57,360
particular he talks about his glucose

314
00:14:04,069 --> 00:14:01,589
level being extremely low a 1.0 when

315
00:14:06,699 --> 00:14:04,079
it's normally in the sixty to eighty

316
00:14:11,060 --> 00:14:06,709
range and even in the severe meningitis

317
00:14:13,250 --> 00:14:11,070
drops down to a twenty so I will publish

318
00:14:16,009 --> 00:14:13,260
this I published it once before but all

319
00:14:18,710 --> 00:14:16,019
included in this show so that people who

320
00:14:20,930 --> 00:14:18,720
do want some of these medical facts can

321
00:14:22,490 --> 00:14:20,940
dig into it here's some of the other

322
00:14:25,210 --> 00:14:22,500
points that he makes that I think are

323
00:14:29,090 --> 00:14:25,220
important this is again dr. Alexander

324
00:14:32,540 --> 00:14:29,100
responding to sam harris a couple months

325
00:14:36,110 --> 00:14:32,550
before this whole Esquire thing blows up

326
00:14:39,290 --> 00:14:36,120
and he says going from symptom onset

327
00:14:42,110 --> 00:14:39,300
that is the first symptoms he had of

328
00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:42,120
this spinal meningitis Tacoma within

329
00:14:48,980 --> 00:14:45,930
three hours is a very dire prognostic

330
00:14:52,850 --> 00:14:48,990
sign and he was as we'll get to in a

331
00:14:55,460 --> 00:14:52,860
minute in coma when he he was in and out

332
00:14:57,680 --> 00:14:55,470
of coma when he was first admitted to

333
00:15:00,650 --> 00:14:57,690
the hospital so that is factual and it's

334
00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:00,660
confirmed by the medical records I think

335
00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:04,170
he was in coma continuously we'll get

336
00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:06,690
into that I think that the terms there

337
00:15:12,110 --> 00:15:10,290
the medical terms lose meaning into a

338
00:15:14,420 --> 00:15:12,120
certain extent because what he's really

339
00:15:17,090 --> 00:15:14,430
saying and what all the medical experts

340
00:15:21,070 --> 00:15:17,100
are saying consistently is that he was

341
00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:21,080
in a state of severely compromised

342
00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:24,690
mental brain functioning throughout that

343
00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:27,450
should just not even be controversial so

344
00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:30,330
when we can't start spinning things coma

345
00:15:34,490 --> 00:15:32,490
induced coma all that we'll get to that

346
00:15:37,070 --> 00:15:34,500
but here is a guy who's kind of laying

347
00:15:42,110 --> 00:15:37,080
out some medical facts and he says that

348
00:15:44,150 --> 00:15:42,120
his state would be 90% mortality rate

349
00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:44,160
from the very beginning given this

350
00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:46,650
situation that he has that it came on so

351
00:15:51,140 --> 00:15:48,930
quickly and then he goes on to say

352
00:15:53,030 --> 00:15:51,150
directly to Sam Harris no physician who

353
00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:53,040
knows anything about meningitis will

354
00:15:56,990 --> 00:15:55,050
just blow off the fact that I was

355
00:15:59,810 --> 00:15:57,000
deathly ill in every sense of the word

356
00:16:02,900 --> 00:15:59,820
and that my neocortex was absolutely

357
00:16:04,700 --> 00:16:02,910
hammered he goes on to say at the end my

358
00:16:07,190 --> 00:16:04,710
physicians and their consultants at

359
00:16:09,890 --> 00:16:07,200
University of Virginia Wake Forest Duke

360
00:16:12,860 --> 00:16:09,900
Harvard Stanford and Beyond were

361
00:16:16,990 --> 00:16:12,870
astonished that I recovered which again

362
00:16:19,310 --> 00:16:17,000
I think as we'll get to is backed up in

363
00:16:25,490 --> 00:16:19,320
the article that you wrote which let's

364
00:16:28,730 --> 00:16:25,500
get to because on July 2nd of 2013 this

365
00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:28,740
is seven eight months after the book has

366
00:16:34,390 --> 00:16:31,410
become a best-seller sold two million

367
00:16:37,930 --> 00:16:34,400
copies I received this email from

368
00:16:41,510 --> 00:16:37,940
Esquires editor-in-chief David Granger

369
00:16:44,930 --> 00:16:41,520
he writes this morning we published an

370
00:16:49,070 --> 00:16:44,940
important article by Luke Dietrich about

371
00:16:50,930 --> 00:16:49,080
dr. eben Alexander the author of proof

372
00:16:53,060 --> 00:16:50,940
of heaven which has been one of the

373
00:16:55,490 --> 00:16:53,070
great successes in book publishing this

374
00:16:57,490 --> 00:16:55,500
year the premise of the book was

375
00:16:59,900 --> 00:16:57,500
irresistible a man of science

376
00:17:02,120 --> 00:16:59,910
neurosurgeon is attacked by a rare

377
00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:02,130
disease if that sends him into a coma

378
00:17:07,370 --> 00:17:04,290
indeed causes his brain cease

379
00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:07,380
functioning while he's incapacitated he

380
00:17:11,120 --> 00:17:09,570
has a vivid experience of afterlife

381
00:17:13,220 --> 00:17:11,130
finally after

382
00:17:16,069 --> 00:17:13,230
restored to health he recreates his

383
00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:16,079
journey in book form we had some

384
00:17:21,110 --> 00:17:18,930
questions the editor from eschar writes

385
00:17:23,059 --> 00:17:21,120
we asked contributing editor Luke

386
00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:23,069
Dietrich who's working on a book about

387
00:17:29,330 --> 00:17:26,250
neuroscience what he thought of the

388
00:17:31,310 --> 00:17:29,340
science of Alexander's book Dietrich

389
00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:31,320
spent several months both looking into

390
00:17:35,390 --> 00:17:33,090
Alexander's medical and scientific

391
00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:35,400
background and researching the

392
00:17:42,610 --> 00:17:39,210
fact-based claims the book makes what

393
00:17:45,910 --> 00:17:42,620
he's revealed is a series of omissions

394
00:17:49,340 --> 00:17:45,920
contradictions and inaccuracies in

395
00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:49,350
Alexander's book that cast fresh light

396
00:17:58,180 --> 00:17:55,170
on its remarkable tale so there we have

397
00:18:02,660 --> 00:17:58,190
it this article from Esquire in July of

398
00:18:05,540 --> 00:18:02,670
2013 just created a firestorm the folks

399
00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:05,550
in the scientific atheistic community

400
00:18:10,940 --> 00:18:09,210
just ran with this many had not read the

401
00:18:13,010 --> 00:18:10,950
article it was behind a paywall but

402
00:18:15,170 --> 00:18:13,020
that's their business but many had not

403
00:18:16,820 --> 00:18:15,180
read had read it they just kind of ran

404
00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:16,830
with it this is great with kind of as

405
00:18:23,870 --> 00:18:19,650
you said earlier we've knocked down this

406
00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:23,880
guy who everyone is so excited about his

407
00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:28,290
near-death experience and then last week

408
00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:33,090
that is August 15th of 2013 you Robert

409
00:18:38,060 --> 00:18:35,970
and Suzanne published an article on the

410
00:18:42,380 --> 00:18:38,070
International Association for near-death

411
00:18:44,390 --> 00:18:42,390
studies website and I want to get into

412
00:18:47,540 --> 00:18:44,400
now that article but I want to start

413
00:18:49,670 --> 00:18:47,550
with the conclusion that you write in

414
00:18:52,490 --> 00:18:49,680
that article here's what you write you

415
00:18:54,290 --> 00:18:52,500
and Suzanne the Dietrich article that is

416
00:18:57,520 --> 00:18:54,300
the article published in Esquire is

417
00:19:00,080 --> 00:18:57,530
shoddy and irresponsible journalism

418
00:19:03,500 --> 00:19:00,090
shoddy because of Luke Dietrich's and

419
00:19:05,690 --> 00:19:03,510
his Esquire editors evident failures and

420
00:19:07,940 --> 00:19:05,700
then you list out some of those failures

421
00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:07,950
that I want to talk about you say that

422
00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:10,730
they fail to consider alternative

423
00:19:16,010 --> 00:19:13,650
explanations they fail to check with

424
00:19:18,380 --> 00:19:16,020
sighted witnesses extremely important

425
00:19:20,690 --> 00:19:18,390
most importantly they fail to check with

426
00:19:23,420 --> 00:19:20,700
medical experts on many of the

427
00:19:25,430 --> 00:19:23,430
assertions that they're making and

428
00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:25,440
again right up there with the most

429
00:19:30,860 --> 00:19:28,770
important they failed a check on the

430
00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:30,870
crucial testimony that they get that

431
00:19:34,730 --> 00:19:33,090
this whole thing hinges on and they

432
00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:34,740
don't even bother to see whether they

433
00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:38,850
really got that right so with that very

434
00:19:44,210 --> 00:19:41,610
lengthy introduction and I appreciate

435
00:19:46,010 --> 00:19:44,220
you to us kind of standing by I can only

436
00:19:47,780 --> 00:19:46,020
imagine all the things you have to say

437
00:19:50,090 --> 00:19:47,790
because you've done fantastic research

438
00:19:53,050 --> 00:19:50,100
into this case but with that as an

439
00:19:55,190 --> 00:19:53,060
introduction can you tell us how this

440
00:19:57,140 --> 00:19:55,200
unfolded for you how you became

441
00:20:01,030 --> 00:19:57,150
interested in investigating this Esquire

442
00:20:04,670 --> 00:20:01,040
article and how all that started well I

443
00:20:08,390 --> 00:20:04,680
usually write news articles for our

444
00:20:11,030 --> 00:20:08,400
website the ions website and this is

445
00:20:15,980 --> 00:20:11,040
obviously one that needs to be written

446
00:20:20,750 --> 00:20:15,990
up and analyzed and if there's if there

447
00:20:23,060 --> 00:20:20,760
are things that the that are in the news

448
00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:23,070
article that I'm writing about that need

449
00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:25,530
further investigation like this doesn't

450
00:20:32,630 --> 00:20:29,970
make sense this doesn't seem right

451
00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:32,640
then I go and do whatever investigation

452
00:20:39,220 --> 00:20:36,690
I can so I read Luke Dietrich's article

453
00:20:44,060 --> 00:20:39,230
very carefully and found that the key

454
00:20:46,700 --> 00:20:44,070
criticism was that the coma was really

455
00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:46,710
not meningitis induced coma but was

456
00:20:53,260 --> 00:20:50,250
really chemically induced coma medically

457
00:20:58,280 --> 00:20:53,270
induced coma and that he really wasn't

458
00:21:00,950 --> 00:20:58,290
in a coma he was in and out of a coma he

459
00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:00,960
was in fact what was quoted dr. Potter

460
00:21:04,490 --> 00:21:03,570
was quoted as saying conscious but

461
00:21:07,700 --> 00:21:04,500
delirious

462
00:21:13,730 --> 00:21:07,710
let's introduce who is who is dr. Laura

463
00:21:17,660 --> 00:21:13,740
Potter dr. Potter was the ER physician

464
00:21:21,110 --> 00:21:17,670
when Evan Alexander was brought in on

465
00:21:25,100 --> 00:21:21,120
that Monday morning and so she was in

466
00:21:28,010 --> 00:21:25,110
charge of treating him initially doing

467
00:21:30,100 --> 00:21:28,020
the initial diagnostic tests and so on

468
00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:30,110
okay and she's featured very prominently

469
00:21:35,990 --> 00:21:34,050
in the Esquire article as the medical

470
00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:36,000
expert real quickly and how much you've

471
00:21:41,090 --> 00:21:37,170
gone with your story

472
00:21:44,810 --> 00:21:41,100
is dr. Scott Wade he apparently is the

473
00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:44,820
the lead physician it's an infectious

474
00:21:49,370 --> 00:21:47,010
disease specialist right of course you

475
00:21:51,860 --> 00:21:49,380
would want it with bacterial meningitis

476
00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:51,870
and the Lee you just said an important

477
00:21:57,200 --> 00:21:54,450
word he's the lead physician okay so not

478
00:21:59,930 --> 00:21:57,210
to discredit or demean in any way the

479
00:22:02,480 --> 00:21:59,940
important role that the ER physician dr.

480
00:22:05,150 --> 00:22:02,490
laura potter played but there's other

481
00:22:06,830 --> 00:22:05,160
medical experts in this case that will

482
00:22:08,780 --> 00:22:06,840
hear about here today which is certainly

483
00:22:12,770 --> 00:22:08,790
didn't hear in the eschar article but

484
00:22:15,620 --> 00:22:12,780
continued you were suspicious as I was

485
00:22:17,270 --> 00:22:15,630
and and that hey wait a minute why do

486
00:22:19,730 --> 00:22:17,280
they say that look I had severe men

487
00:22:21,950 --> 00:22:19,740
spinal meningitis you know e coli

488
00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:21,960
bacteria what is his idea that he wasn't

489
00:22:28,690 --> 00:22:24,930
he wasn't really that that that ill so

490
00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:28,700
continue from there so I did say well

491
00:22:33,860 --> 00:22:31,530
could she had said he was conscious but

492
00:22:37,430 --> 00:22:33,870
delirious given all of the medical facts

493
00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:37,440
that were you know present on The

494
00:22:45,740 --> 00:22:40,650
Skeptical website and at other times

495
00:22:50,750 --> 00:22:45,750
that Evan Alexander has presented this

496
00:22:53,620 --> 00:22:50,760
and he and so I called the hospital and

497
00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:53,630
asked to speak to the doctor Potter and

498
00:23:00,920 --> 00:22:56,210
left a message on her voice mail and

499
00:23:03,890 --> 00:23:00,930
didn't get a response I figured that

500
00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:03,900
what I had said a few hours later it

501
00:23:10,010 --> 00:23:06,330
wasn't complete so I called again and

502
00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:10,020
left another message this time I got a

503
00:23:14,030 --> 00:23:12,210
secretary I think just a message and

504
00:23:17,870 --> 00:23:14,040
said she would definitely want to get

505
00:23:22,870 --> 00:23:17,880
that to dr. Potter but I didn't hear

506
00:23:24,830 --> 00:23:22,880
anything at all and over the weekend I

507
00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:24,840
called you know I was worried about

508
00:23:30,500 --> 00:23:27,090
you're interested in this you know how

509
00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:30,510
could there be no rainbow on Sunday

510
00:23:36,050 --> 00:23:33,090
morning when the meteorologist said it

511
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:36,060
was clear okay cuz let's introduce that

512
00:23:40,130 --> 00:23:38,010
again too because the the Dietrich

513
00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:40,140
article anyone you have to read it you

514
00:23:44,420 --> 00:23:41,850
have Derby because it's it's extremely

515
00:23:47,690 --> 00:23:44,430
well-crafted let's give him that you

516
00:23:49,850 --> 00:23:47,700
know and he builds this case with the

517
00:23:51,020 --> 00:23:49,860
facts that he has but he really builds

518
00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:51,030
his whole thing

519
00:23:55,669 --> 00:23:54,210
this guy's a liar that's the story and

520
00:23:57,320 --> 00:23:55,679
he approaches it from a number of

521
00:23:59,840 --> 00:23:57,330
different angles some of which are

522
00:24:01,880 --> 00:23:59,850
really substantive to the story like the

523
00:24:03,799 --> 00:24:01,890
coma thing and these other things that

524
00:24:05,630 --> 00:24:03,809
he just kind of picks at but they do

525
00:24:08,030 --> 00:24:05,640
kind of stick in your mind as you're

526
00:24:10,940 --> 00:24:08,040
reading the article like the rainbow

527
00:24:13,430 --> 00:24:10,950
thing tell us what the the rainbow thing

528
00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:13,440
is all about and then tell us what you

529
00:24:18,830 --> 00:24:14,250
found out

530
00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:18,840
well in the book on Sunday morning

531
00:24:26,330 --> 00:24:22,170
according to the story dr. Alexander

532
00:24:29,740 --> 00:24:26,340
wrote his sister Phyllis and his mother

533
00:24:33,830 --> 00:24:29,750
Betty were coming into the hospital and

534
00:24:36,350 --> 00:24:33,840
saw a perfect rainbow and they felt that

535
00:24:39,790 --> 00:24:36,360
this was a sign dittrick took this as

536
00:24:44,810 --> 00:24:39,800
saying well heaven itself was heralding

537
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:44,820
heaven Alexander's return and and then

538
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:48,330
the district then said asked a

539
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:50,490
meteorologist whether there could have

540
00:24:53,570 --> 00:24:52,170
been a rainbow then and the

541
00:24:55,669 --> 00:24:53,580
meteorologist said well the day was

542
00:24:58,190 --> 00:24:55,679
clear so there couldn't have been and I

543
00:25:01,700 --> 00:24:58,200
said well wait a minute somebody two

544
00:25:04,100 --> 00:25:01,710
people said they they saw it so I called

545
00:25:09,230 --> 00:25:04,110
Phyllis Alexander and she said

546
00:25:13,130 --> 00:25:09,240
definitely we saw a rainbow was a the

547
00:25:14,510 --> 00:25:13,140
mother betty was was remarked that it

548
00:25:16,730 --> 00:25:14,520
was the perfect rainbow they talked

549
00:25:19,850 --> 00:25:16,740
about it and then they went immediately

550
00:25:22,340 --> 00:25:19,860
up to heavens room and there Evan was

551
00:25:24,620 --> 00:25:22,350
sitting up so that was the time that he

552
00:25:26,570 --> 00:25:24,630
had recovered it just a little tidbit

553
00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:26,580
that you talk about in your article that

554
00:25:29,810 --> 00:25:28,290
I thought was great and it's real the

555
00:25:31,910 --> 00:25:29,820
real kind of journalism we would have

556
00:25:33,220 --> 00:25:31,920
liked to have gotten from Esquire is so

557
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:33,230
you not only talked to these

558
00:25:39,169 --> 00:25:36,570
eyewitnesses which he did not he just

559
00:25:41,630 --> 00:25:39,179
went on some meteorological report but

560
00:25:43,580 --> 00:25:41,640
they also had evidence because it was

561
00:25:44,930 --> 00:25:43,590
such a spectacular event that they had

562
00:25:46,190 --> 00:25:44,940
written an email and I forget who

563
00:25:48,140 --> 00:25:46,200
whether it was his sister or whatever

564
00:25:50,030 --> 00:25:48,150
but they had email documentation that

565
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:50,040
when they came way that day from the

566
00:25:52,910 --> 00:25:51,210
hospital they wrote someone an email

567
00:25:54,770 --> 00:25:52,920
said wow there's this great rainbow so I

568
00:25:57,980 --> 00:25:54,780
mean that's right so later later that

569
00:26:01,159 --> 00:25:57,990
day and so it said that she had written

570
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:01,169
into the people she's in Boston and she

571
00:26:03,500 --> 00:26:02,610
had friends in Boston who were praying

572
00:26:06,830 --> 00:26:03,510
for Evan

573
00:26:10,570 --> 00:26:06,840
she had written them saying Evan has

574
00:26:14,030 --> 00:26:10,580
recovered and and we saw I saw a

575
00:26:14,890 --> 00:26:14,040
beautiful rainbow as I was coming into

576
00:26:19,100 --> 00:26:14,900
the hospital

577
00:26:21,380 --> 00:26:19,110
so that's so she said you know there's

578
00:26:25,580 --> 00:26:21,390
there's that documentation as well so

579
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:25,590
the district's argument there is empty

580
00:26:29,660 --> 00:26:27,810
it's shoddy journalism if you're trying

581
00:26:31,370 --> 00:26:29,670
to debunk something which I've run

582
00:26:32,750 --> 00:26:31,380
across so many times that's one thing

583
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:32,760
you're a deep bunker you're just out

584
00:26:37,100 --> 00:26:35,610
there you know just strolling whatever

585
00:26:39,980 --> 00:26:37,110
you can against the wall and seeing what

586
00:26:42,590 --> 00:26:39,990
sticks but if you're esquire who still

587
00:26:45,710 --> 00:26:42,600
has some kind of legitimacy as a

588
00:26:47,390 --> 00:26:45,720
journalistic enterprise you you have to

589
00:26:49,700 --> 00:26:47,400
do more than this you have to talk to

590
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:49,710
witnesses you have to get their side of

591
00:26:54,260 --> 00:26:52,170
it I and and I think this lays a pattern

592
00:26:56,270 --> 00:26:54,270
for what we're about to what else we're

593
00:26:57,680 --> 00:26:56,280
about to talk about so the other point

594
00:27:01,280 --> 00:26:57,690
you make right after this in your

595
00:27:03,950 --> 00:27:01,290
article is this other fact that becomes

596
00:27:07,150 --> 00:27:03,960
controversial and that's dr. Alexander

597
00:27:09,980 --> 00:27:07,160
calls out oh my god and that becomes

598
00:27:12,710 --> 00:27:09,990
obviously an important part of the story

599
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:12,720
Dietrich seeks to shoot that down tell

600
00:27:18,500 --> 00:27:15,210
us about that Robert Dittrich is saying

601
00:27:21,860 --> 00:27:18,510
that according to dr. powder he couldn't

602
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:21,870
have yelled that out because and it was

603
00:27:26,330 --> 00:27:23,730
in the book it says right before he's

604
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:26,340
leaving to being taken from the

605
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:30,410
emergency room to the ICU he yelled out

606
00:27:35,690 --> 00:27:34,170
god help me and he couldn't have

607
00:27:37,670 --> 00:27:35,700
happened because he was intubated at

608
00:27:39,500 --> 00:27:37,680
that time and in fact he had been

609
00:27:44,390 --> 00:27:39,510
intubated for about an hour before he

610
00:27:46,790 --> 00:27:44,400
was taken up to NICU and so the that

611
00:27:50,690 --> 00:27:46,800
couldn't have happened well there were

612
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:50,700
two witnesses Holly Alexander Evans wife

613
00:27:56,990 --> 00:27:54,570
and Michael Sullivan who was an

614
00:28:00,740 --> 00:27:57,000
Episcopal minister who is their neighbor

615
00:28:04,790 --> 00:28:00,750
and they were both in the ER at the time

616
00:28:06,590 --> 00:28:04,800
so I called Holly and said you know it

617
00:28:09,890 --> 00:28:06,600
took a while to get ahold of her and I

618
00:28:13,850 --> 00:28:09,900
had to have some help from Phyllis

619
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:13,860
Phyllis but I talked with her and and

620
00:28:17,360 --> 00:28:16,770
she said yes he did say he did say that

621
00:28:19,220 --> 00:28:17,370
in fact

622
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:19,230
we I was standing right outside the

623
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:22,290
curtain they had they had said okay

624
00:28:27,410 --> 00:28:23,970
everybody out because we have to do this

625
00:28:30,049 --> 00:28:27,420
test you know this procedure and so they

626
00:28:34,930 --> 00:28:30,059
were standing outside she and mr.

627
00:28:38,180 --> 00:28:34,940
Sullivan and and and they both heard

628
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:38,190
Evan say god help me as he was

629
00:28:41,900 --> 00:28:40,050
struggling with the people who were

630
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:41,910
trying to do this procedure whatever it

631
00:28:50,030 --> 00:28:47,610
was and and and so they went to the

632
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:50,040
bedside and and of course he was he was

633
00:28:59,210 --> 00:28:52,650
still struggling and was still

634
00:29:00,620 --> 00:28:59,220
unconscious so so there it is and of

635
00:29:04,220 --> 00:29:00,630
course that happened before the

636
00:29:06,260 --> 00:29:04,230
intubation so so the the embellishment

637
00:29:06,770 --> 00:29:06,270
that has happened here was for dramatic

638
00:29:09,799 --> 00:29:06,780
effect

639
00:29:12,530 --> 00:29:09,809
apparently that oh it had to be right

640
00:29:15,830 --> 00:29:12,540
before he's taken back to the ICU

641
00:29:18,740 --> 00:29:15,840
rather than sometime you know two hours

642
00:29:21,140 --> 00:29:18,750
before that in the ER right and this is

643
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:21,150
a minor detail that you know who knows

644
00:29:24,290 --> 00:29:22,890
how it got in there or the editor or

645
00:29:26,030 --> 00:29:24,300
whatever it's it's really not important

646
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:26,040
to that to the story and I can

647
00:29:31,610 --> 00:29:28,890
understand dr. Potter saying that if

648
00:29:33,830 --> 00:29:31,620
she's asked a certain way which she was

649
00:29:35,150 --> 00:29:33,840
let's get back to that story that part

650
00:29:38,419 --> 00:29:35,160
of the story because it's crucial

651
00:29:42,290 --> 00:29:38,429
crucial crucial it is really the point

652
00:29:44,540 --> 00:29:42,300
at which the whole article from Esquire

653
00:29:45,799 --> 00:29:44,550
shifts because he's kind of picking

654
00:29:47,540 --> 00:29:45,809
around at all these little things and

655
00:29:50,390 --> 00:29:47,550
then he hits you with hey wait a minute

656
00:29:52,580 --> 00:29:50,400
I talked to the ER physician and she has

657
00:29:56,210 --> 00:29:52,590
serious doubts about this guy's story

658
00:29:59,890 --> 00:29:56,220
that's the the meme that you get from

659
00:30:03,260 --> 00:29:59,900
Luke Dietrich is that Laura Potter is

660
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:03,270
totally dissing this story and saying it

661
00:30:08,060 --> 00:30:05,130
couldn't have happened that way and he

662
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:08,070
wasn't really in a coma and he was

663
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:10,410
delirious and that's he makes the case

664
00:30:14,860 --> 00:30:12,210
that that's probably how this story all

665
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:14,870
came about in this in this delirium that

666
00:30:18,830 --> 00:30:17,490
Alexander was having so why don't you

667
00:30:20,900 --> 00:30:18,840
pick up from there Robert because you

668
00:30:23,090 --> 00:30:20,910
said you've put a couple calls in to dr.

669
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:23,100
Potter at this point in the story you

670
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:25,250
haven't heard back what happens next I

671
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:28,410
received from members of the family

672
00:30:30,950 --> 00:30:30,450
copies of emails that they had been

673
00:30:34,070 --> 00:30:30,960
sending

674
00:30:37,340 --> 00:30:34,080
back and forth and copies of portions

675
00:30:40,510 --> 00:30:37,350
just snippets of emails and in that was

676
00:30:43,430 --> 00:30:40,520
a statement that dr. Potter had made

677
00:30:46,190 --> 00:30:43,440
apparently I learned later it was a

678
00:30:50,570 --> 00:30:46,200
statement that she had issued to a press

679
00:30:52,820 --> 00:30:50,580
organization news organization and and

680
00:30:55,340 --> 00:30:52,830
apparently that news organization did

681
00:31:00,169 --> 00:30:55,350
not use it in any case that statement

682
00:31:04,610 --> 00:31:00,179
was that she was miss voted and taken

683
00:31:07,970 --> 00:31:04,620
out of context and so I said whoa this

684
00:31:11,139 --> 00:31:07,980
is really quite strange and that fact

685
00:31:13,549 --> 00:31:11,149
that she felt like her account was

686
00:31:16,070 --> 00:31:13,559
misrepresented that she was much more of

687
00:31:18,889 --> 00:31:16,080
supportive of Alexander story than it

688
00:31:22,070 --> 00:31:18,899
came out and that she felt like the

689
00:31:23,930 --> 00:31:22,080
questions weren't fair is backed up by

690
00:31:26,779 --> 00:31:23,940
what you heard from the family right

691
00:31:28,549 --> 00:31:26,789
because the family talks to dr. Potter

692
00:31:29,750 --> 00:31:28,559
and she's kind of like apologizing

693
00:31:32,330 --> 00:31:29,760
saying gosh I don't know how this

694
00:31:34,940 --> 00:31:32,340
happened and you know that's what I took

695
00:31:37,220 --> 00:31:34,950
away from your article is that what you

696
00:31:40,180 --> 00:31:37,230
got from talking to the family yes

697
00:31:44,389 --> 00:31:40,190
basically they said they repeated what

698
00:31:47,930 --> 00:31:44,399
dr. Potter had in this statement when

699
00:31:50,899 --> 00:31:47,940
when dr. Potter finally communicated to

700
00:31:54,740 --> 00:31:50,909
me through the public relations person

701
00:31:56,510 --> 00:31:54,750
at the hospital the public relations

702
00:31:59,240 --> 00:31:56,520
person said dr. Potter wants the

703
00:32:02,930 --> 00:31:59,250
statement that that I was quoting in the

704
00:32:05,930 --> 00:32:02,940
article removed I said fine dad was

705
00:32:08,570 --> 00:32:05,940
trying to you know I had contacted the

706
00:32:12,620 --> 00:32:08,580
public relations resident because dr.

707
00:32:14,539 --> 00:32:12,630
Potter hadn't responded yet and and I

708
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:14,549
and and they didn't respond right away I

709
00:32:22,220 --> 00:32:17,970
had to call them three times and and

710
00:32:24,590 --> 00:32:22,230
finally Diane Reilly called me back and

711
00:32:26,830 --> 00:32:24,600
said she had talked with dr. Potter and

712
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:26,840
dr. Potter doesn't want you to use that

713
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:29,610
statement that she had doesn't want that

714
00:32:35,659 --> 00:32:32,370
quotation in there but she still made

715
00:32:37,850 --> 00:32:35,669
that statement and she did express that

716
00:32:40,100 --> 00:32:37,860
to the family and I think I want to make

717
00:32:43,410 --> 00:32:40,110
it crystal clear here that we put the

718
00:32:45,900 --> 00:32:43,420
responsibility where it belongs in

719
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:45,910
where you put it in your article and

720
00:32:51,630 --> 00:32:48,970
that is for Luke Dietrich who went out

721
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:51,640
there with this piece of work that he

722
00:32:59,070 --> 00:32:56,170
did to back up his claims you don't talk

723
00:33:01,200 --> 00:32:59,080
to one person and then misrepresent him

724
00:33:03,570 --> 00:33:01,210
and not go back and say hey is this

725
00:33:07,890 --> 00:33:03,580
really what you said you don't go and

726
00:33:11,370 --> 00:33:07,900
not talk to the lead physician dr. Scott

727
00:33:14,190 --> 00:33:11,380
Wade who still stands by his report that

728
00:33:16,230 --> 00:33:14,200
there is no way this guy could have had

729
00:33:18,990 --> 00:33:16,240
a functioning brain and that the coma

730
00:33:22,500 --> 00:33:19,000
lasted virtually from the time that this

731
00:33:25,550 --> 00:33:22,510
thing onset till he was out the the

732
00:33:28,710 --> 00:33:25,560
responsibility for this is squarely on

733
00:33:31,530 --> 00:33:28,720
Esquire and as you point out I think it

734
00:33:33,900 --> 00:33:31,540
was you said it hey at the very least if

735
00:33:36,150 --> 00:33:33,910
you're Luke Dietrich and you think maybe

736
00:33:37,860 --> 00:33:36,160
you just made this little mistake by

737
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:37,870
accident great publish your notes

738
00:33:43,140 --> 00:33:40,570
publish your recordings with the doctor

739
00:33:46,260 --> 00:33:43,150
with dr. Laura Potter show us that you

740
00:33:49,470 --> 00:33:46,270
didn't twist this into a story to fit

741
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:49,480
your predetermined goal because all the

742
00:33:53,550 --> 00:33:51,130
other facts that you're bringing up

743
00:33:55,950 --> 00:33:53,560
would really paint that as the true

744
00:33:59,400 --> 00:33:55,960
story of what's going on here right and

745
00:34:02,460 --> 00:33:59,410
basically dr. Potter expressed to the

746
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:02,470
family that she had been misrepresented

747
00:34:09,330 --> 00:34:05,170
and that her words were taken out of

748
00:34:12,630 --> 00:34:09,340
context by Luke Dietrich and that he had

749
00:34:15,720 --> 00:34:12,640
led her to say certain things and in

750
00:34:19,409 --> 00:34:15,730
fact it was a little more than that they

751
00:34:21,570 --> 00:34:19,419
said that he had that she had expressed

752
00:34:23,460 --> 00:34:21,580
to them that he had forced her to say

753
00:34:25,409 --> 00:34:23,470
certain things I didn't hear that from

754
00:34:31,230 --> 00:34:25,419
dr. Potter but that's what they say to

755
00:34:34,860 --> 00:34:31,240
me it is as if he was leading her in in

756
00:34:37,740 --> 00:34:34,870
a way that she had to come out and say

757
00:34:43,020 --> 00:34:37,750
yes conscious but delirious but that

758
00:34:45,350 --> 00:34:43,030
isn't really what is applying to to evan

759
00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:45,360
Alexander's case at least that's my

760
00:34:56,100 --> 00:34:52,090
guess and and that indeed he was in a

761
00:34:57,609 --> 00:34:56,110
coma and the course the the question

762
00:35:00,010 --> 00:34:57,619
that Luke

763
00:35:01,720 --> 00:35:00,020
says he posed to her I don't think is

764
00:35:04,210 --> 00:35:01,730
the question he actually posed to her

765
00:35:06,430 --> 00:35:04,220
when she said yes conscious but

766
00:35:09,700 --> 00:35:06,440
delirious it would be very interesting

767
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:09,710
to see what exactly happened in that

768
00:35:17,500 --> 00:35:14,290
interview and and and just understand

769
00:35:18,940 --> 00:35:17,510
what she was responding to I think it

770
00:35:23,109 --> 00:35:18,950
would be more than interesting I think

771
00:35:25,750 --> 00:35:23,119
it's absolutely his responsibility given

772
00:35:27,299 --> 00:35:25,760
the damage that this article has done

773
00:35:29,799 --> 00:35:27,309
and sought to do from the beginning

774
00:35:32,230 --> 00:35:29,809
there's an added level of response

775
00:35:34,329 --> 00:35:32,240
journalistic responsibility to get your

776
00:35:35,770 --> 00:35:34,339
facts right and these things being

777
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:35,780
called into question this way

778
00:35:43,539 --> 00:35:40,450
demand that he really back up his claims

779
00:35:46,240 --> 00:35:43,549
yes it's very interesting dr. Potter

780
00:35:48,370 --> 00:35:46,250
doesn't want to be you know involved in

781
00:35:51,130 --> 00:35:48,380
this anymore she wants to you know let

782
00:35:53,289 --> 00:35:51,140
it go we have to respect that so you we

783
00:35:56,650 --> 00:35:53,299
can't we can't go back to dr. Potter but

784
00:35:58,630 --> 00:35:56,660
we can you know if if if sooth Dietrich

785
00:36:01,780 --> 00:35:58,640
did record this it would be interesting

786
00:36:04,359 --> 00:36:01,790
for the Esquire editors to look at what

787
00:36:07,900 --> 00:36:04,369
exactly is said and and maybe make that

788
00:36:09,579 --> 00:36:07,910
available and and and and what you know

789
00:36:13,780 --> 00:36:09,589
what was the conversation that he had

790
00:36:17,230 --> 00:36:13,790
where dr. Potter said yes conscious but

791
00:36:20,799 --> 00:36:17,240
delirious because on that hinges

792
00:36:24,940 --> 00:36:20,809
everything of his claim that he wasn't

793
00:36:27,579 --> 00:36:24,950
in a bacterial meningitis induced coma

794
00:36:30,359 --> 00:36:27,589
he was in a medically induced coma that

795
00:36:32,859 --> 00:36:30,369
they brought him out of periodically

796
00:36:36,010 --> 00:36:32,869
because and of course he was flashing

797
00:36:37,839 --> 00:36:36,020
around conscious quote conscious but

798
00:36:39,970 --> 00:36:37,849
delirious and then they would put

799
00:36:41,829 --> 00:36:39,980
because he was flashing around he would

800
00:36:44,260 --> 00:36:41,839
be put back into the command to

801
00:36:47,799 --> 00:36:44,270
medically induced coma no he was he was

802
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:47,809
out the whole time well that that whole

803
00:36:54,220 --> 00:36:51,970
scenario makes for an extremely terrible

804
00:36:56,079 --> 00:36:54,230
explanation for this near-death

805
00:36:57,700 --> 00:36:56,089
experience and it goes back to the very

806
00:36:59,950 --> 00:36:57,710
first thing you said here Robert and

807
00:37:01,930 --> 00:36:59,960
that's that we've seen this if you've

808
00:37:04,150 --> 00:37:01,940
been around this field for a long time

809
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:04,160
you've seen this over and over again

810
00:37:08,559 --> 00:37:06,530
it's the divide-and-conquer oh I can

811
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:08,569
explain that near-death experience this

812
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:10,810
way oh I can explain that near

813
00:37:14,610 --> 00:37:12,610
experience a completely different way

814
00:37:16,380 --> 00:37:14,620
that contradicts the first way but now

815
00:37:18,630 --> 00:37:16,390
I've handled that one and now I've

816
00:37:21,380 --> 00:37:18,640
handled this one the point is and I

817
00:37:25,350 --> 00:37:21,390
think when we talk about we use words

818
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:25,360
carefully chosen to kind of push people

819
00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:26,650
in a certain way and we say what's he

820
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:27,490
conscious

821
00:37:32,420 --> 00:37:29,890
was he delirious and I think when you

822
00:37:34,710 --> 00:37:32,430
read the more medically oriented

823
00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:34,720
explanations to this case what they show

824
00:37:40,230 --> 00:37:38,050
is hey there is no way on earth this guy

825
00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:40,240
should be having these kind of

826
00:37:44,910 --> 00:37:42,850
experiences that he reported given his

827
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:44,920
medical condition you want to talk about

828
00:37:51,060 --> 00:37:47,890
it coma conscious delirious whatever his

829
00:37:53,130 --> 00:37:51,070
brain was gone man there was as he said

830
00:37:55,860 --> 00:37:53,140
as dr. Alexander said in that piece that

831
00:37:57,740 --> 00:37:55,870
I wrote you there is no possible way

832
00:38:00,270 --> 00:37:57,750
that there could have been any

833
00:38:03,090 --> 00:38:00,280
significant mental processing brain

834
00:38:04,590 --> 00:38:03,100
processing going on when that brain

835
00:38:07,020 --> 00:38:04,600
state was that so I think it's

836
00:38:08,930 --> 00:38:07,030
disingenuous to kind of when these guys

837
00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:08,940
throw around these terms and try and

838
00:38:13,590 --> 00:38:11,170
wordsmith it here or there pick the

839
00:38:16,020 --> 00:38:13,600
words apart the guy had a severely

840
00:38:17,580 --> 00:38:16,030
severely compromised brain that isn't

841
00:38:22,020 --> 00:38:17,590
even controversial why isn't that the

842
00:38:24,810 --> 00:38:22,030
focus right and I go into in my article

843
00:38:26,610 --> 00:38:24,820
go into talking about coma and seizures

844
00:38:28,140 --> 00:38:26,620
he was having seizures and that and

845
00:38:30,240 --> 00:38:28,150
that's that's why he was thrashing

846
00:38:33,510 --> 00:38:30,250
around because the electrical activity

847
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:33,520
in his brain being under attack from the

848
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:36,210
bacteria on the surface of the cortex

849
00:38:45,420 --> 00:38:41,890
was causing all kinds of random showers

850
00:38:48,240 --> 00:38:45,430
of electrical activity that would cause

851
00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:48,250
muscle movements random muscle movements

852
00:38:54,270 --> 00:38:51,490
and and could cause vocalizations and so

853
00:38:56,730 --> 00:38:54,280
on and and that's what was observed also

854
00:39:00,030 --> 00:38:56,740
the other aspects of his coma

855
00:39:02,720 --> 00:39:00,040
were measured and and he was he had

856
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:02,730
severe brain damage from the beginning

857
00:39:10,380 --> 00:39:07,090
he was in the Glasgow Coma Scale of

858
00:39:13,860 --> 00:39:10,390
eight indicating severe brain damage and

859
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:13,870
not responses maybe responses if you is

860
00:39:19,020 --> 00:39:16,570
to a painful stimulus but not responsive

861
00:39:24,059 --> 00:39:19,030
you know to talking not being verbal at

862
00:39:26,339 --> 00:39:24,069
all being unconscious and an end as

863
00:39:29,609 --> 00:39:26,349
as the day's wore on it got worse and

864
00:39:32,789 --> 00:39:29,619
worse and and towards the end his hands

865
00:39:35,459 --> 00:39:32,799
were curling up and his feet were toes

866
00:39:39,269 --> 00:39:35,469
were curling up and that's indicating

867
00:39:41,130 --> 00:39:39,279
even further into coma so to say well he

868
00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:41,140
was conscious when he was brought out of

869
00:39:46,739 --> 00:39:44,650
sedation or but just delirious is just

870
00:39:49,469 --> 00:39:46,749
completely wrong you know and we may

871
00:39:52,170 --> 00:39:49,479
never be able to get to the bottom of

872
00:39:54,059 --> 00:39:52,180
this these medical records are very hard

873
00:39:56,430 --> 00:39:54,069
to get your hands on there's privacy

874
00:39:58,199 --> 00:39:56,440
issues there's all sorts of medical

875
00:40:01,620 --> 00:39:58,209
liability issues and those kind of

876
00:40:03,809 --> 00:40:01,630
things but one final point on your

877
00:40:06,870 --> 00:40:03,819
article that we can wrap our arms around

878
00:40:10,799 --> 00:40:06,880
because it's very public is Dietrich's

879
00:40:14,519 --> 00:40:10,809
spin on Evan Alexander's encounter with

880
00:40:19,170 --> 00:40:14,529
the Dalai Lama and for anyone who really

881
00:40:21,390 --> 00:40:19,180
wants a fact-based analysis of how

882
00:40:25,829 --> 00:40:21,400
straight this guy is shooting with you

883
00:40:27,749 --> 00:40:25,839
can go watch dr. Alexander's joint

884
00:40:30,299 --> 00:40:27,759
presentation with the Dalai Lama

885
00:40:33,209 --> 00:40:30,309
so Dietrich really adds that as the

886
00:40:36,150 --> 00:40:33,219
capstone kicker to his article and you

887
00:40:38,339 --> 00:40:36,160
cover it at the end of yours tell us

888
00:40:41,459 --> 00:40:38,349
what you found out in that case Robert

889
00:40:44,039 --> 00:40:41,469
well the district took the words of the

890
00:40:46,079 --> 00:40:44,049
Dalai Lama and twisted them to mean

891
00:40:51,870 --> 00:40:46,089
exactly the opposite of what the Dalai

892
00:40:56,789 --> 00:40:51,880
Lama meant and and not only that but

893
00:41:00,359 --> 00:40:56,799
this was emblazoned in the article in a

894
00:41:03,329 --> 00:41:00,369
pull quote all caps the Dalai Lama wags

895
00:41:06,749 --> 00:41:03,339
a finger at Alexander women and says

896
00:41:09,420 --> 00:41:06,759
when a man makes extraordinary claims a

897
00:41:11,910 --> 00:41:09,430
thorough investigation is required to

898
00:41:13,949 --> 00:41:11,920
ensure that person is reliable has no

899
00:41:15,900 --> 00:41:13,959
reason to lie you know what I thought

900
00:41:19,559 --> 00:41:15,910
was it what struck me immediately is as

901
00:41:22,079 --> 00:41:19,569
if Dietrich is signing on to this idea

902
00:41:25,019 --> 00:41:22,089
that the Dalai Lama has some psychic

903
00:41:27,209 --> 00:41:25,029
powers and is reading the soul of even

904
00:41:29,189 --> 00:41:27,219
Alexander and is telling this great

905
00:41:32,579 --> 00:41:29,199
deceit that he's holding on his soul I

906
00:41:34,259 --> 00:41:32,589
mean otherwise well how would he how is

907
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:34,269
even suggesting that the Dalai Lama

908
00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:37,930
would would know what he's suggesting he

909
00:41:42,540 --> 00:41:40,450
saying which of course gets to the heart

910
00:41:44,849 --> 00:41:42,550
of the issue which is that's not at all

911
00:41:46,799 --> 00:41:44,859
what the Dalai Lama was saying and the

912
00:41:49,410 --> 00:41:46,809
whole purpose of that presentation was

913
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:49,420
exactly the opposite of what we're led

914
00:41:52,530 --> 00:41:51,010
to believe in the Esquire article so

915
00:41:56,339 --> 00:41:52,540
please elaborate on them

916
00:41:59,190 --> 00:41:56,349
well the Dalai Lama heard Evan

917
00:42:01,950 --> 00:41:59,200
Alexander's presentation and the first

918
00:42:03,390 --> 00:42:01,960
thing that he said was your explanation

919
00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:03,400
on the basis for your own sort of

920
00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:06,970
experience quite and then he said of

921
00:42:12,540 --> 00:42:10,450
that word quite Tibetan word amazing

922
00:42:14,970 --> 00:42:12,550
quite amazing and if you look at the if

923
00:42:17,250 --> 00:42:14,980
you look at the video the Dalai Lama has

924
00:42:20,490 --> 00:42:17,260
an expression where he is really quite

925
00:42:22,349 --> 00:42:20,500
amazed and that's at the very beginning

926
00:42:25,890 --> 00:42:22,359
that's the first thing he says so that

927
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:25,900
kind of tells you well he's not he's not

928
00:42:30,329 --> 00:42:28,210
doing he's not making the judgement that

929
00:42:32,910 --> 00:42:30,339
the district is saying he's making and

930
00:42:36,059 --> 00:42:32,920
the Dalai Lama then explains something

931
00:42:38,849 --> 00:42:36,069
about how you can have evident phenomena

932
00:42:42,270 --> 00:42:38,859
you can have hidden phenomena that you

933
00:42:44,099 --> 00:42:42,280
can infer from measurements in direct

934
00:42:47,130 --> 00:42:44,109
measurements and you can have extremely

935
00:42:49,620 --> 00:42:47,140
hidden phenomena and let me just

936
00:42:51,839 --> 00:42:49,630
interject one more time because if you

937
00:42:53,730 --> 00:42:51,849
really if someone really listens to the

938
00:42:56,940 --> 00:42:53,740
entire presentation by the Dalai Lama

939
00:42:59,670 --> 00:42:56,950
and also puts it in the context of his

940
00:43:01,500 --> 00:42:59,680
previous presentations we should be it

941
00:43:05,339 --> 00:43:01,510
should be crystal clear what he's saying

942
00:43:07,559 --> 00:43:05,349
there he's doing a call to science to

943
00:43:10,260 --> 00:43:07,569
investigate consciousness and

944
00:43:12,839 --> 00:43:10,270
investigate these phenomena he is

945
00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:12,849
calling out science in exactly the

946
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:15,970
opposite way that deitrick is talking

947
00:43:19,770 --> 00:43:17,890
about he's saying hey get in this game

948
00:43:22,650 --> 00:43:19,780
there's a lot to be investigated here

949
00:43:25,859 --> 00:43:22,660
like this guy has investigated and his

950
00:43:28,140 --> 00:43:25,869
is just one way to investigate it right

951
00:43:31,559 --> 00:43:28,150
and and so he's saying that with these

952
00:43:34,740 --> 00:43:31,569
extremely hidden phenomena where you

953
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:34,750
cannot investigate them directly or even

954
00:43:40,589 --> 00:43:37,530
indirectly through scientific means

955
00:43:46,730 --> 00:43:40,599
normal scientific means then you have to

956
00:43:49,859 --> 00:43:46,740
rely on the testimony of a person who is

957
00:43:51,870 --> 00:43:49,869
has the testimony who had experienced

958
00:43:53,309 --> 00:43:51,880
this but you have to be careful

959
00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:53,319
you have to have a thorough

960
00:43:57,509 --> 00:43:55,450
investigation you have to be sure that

961
00:44:02,339 --> 00:43:57,519
the person is reliable and it's not

962
00:44:04,289 --> 00:44:02,349
never telling lie and and and then you

963
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:04,299
can take the testimony to be credible

964
00:44:10,170 --> 00:44:08,410
and what Luke Dietrich left out was the

965
00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:10,180
Dalai Lama said and I'm quoting him here

966
00:44:16,980 --> 00:44:13,450
through then thorough investigation that

967
00:44:19,589 --> 00:44:16,990
person is reliable never telling lie and

968
00:44:22,950 --> 00:44:19,599
in this particular case this is no

969
00:44:25,140 --> 00:44:22,960
reason to tell lie therefore and then

970
00:44:29,339 --> 00:44:25,150
the translator says so then one can take

971
00:44:31,289 --> 00:44:29,349
the testimony to be credible and the

972
00:44:33,390 --> 00:44:31,299
district left out that and in this

973
00:44:36,299 --> 00:44:33,400
particular case this is no reason to

974
00:44:37,620 --> 00:44:36,309
tell lie so he's saying and in this

975
00:44:40,499 --> 00:44:37,630
particular case

976
00:44:45,150 --> 00:44:40,509
Evan Alexander there is no reason to

977
00:44:48,180 --> 00:44:45,160
tell a lie and and the district's turns

978
00:44:50,609 --> 00:44:48,190
that around and says you know that

979
00:44:55,190 --> 00:44:50,619
person is reliable never telling lie and

980
00:44:58,890 --> 00:44:55,200
has no reason to lie but leaves out that

981
00:45:01,259 --> 00:44:58,900
the Dalai Lama is saying in this

982
00:45:03,930 --> 00:45:01,269
particular case if an Alexander has no

983
00:45:06,690 --> 00:45:03,940
reason to lie right I mean obviously

984
00:45:08,940 --> 00:45:06,700
what he's talking about is again he's

985
00:45:10,980 --> 00:45:08,950
trying to lay the the cookie crumbs for

986
00:45:12,240 --> 00:45:10,990
science in terms of all investigated

987
00:45:14,190 --> 00:45:12,250
what you're saying why should a

988
00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:14,200
spiritual leader be doing that but on

989
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:16,450
the other hand why hasn't science done a

990
00:45:20,789 --> 00:45:18,490
better job of that so I think he feels

991
00:45:23,039 --> 00:45:20,799
motivated to do this and I think what

992
00:45:25,170 --> 00:45:23,049
he's really contrasting is somebody who

993
00:45:26,579 --> 00:45:25,180
just walks in off the street and writes

994
00:45:29,279 --> 00:45:26,589
a story about a near-death experience

995
00:45:32,099 --> 00:45:29,289
they had 20 years ago we have no way of

996
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:32,109
knowing verses in this case we have tons

997
00:45:36,749 --> 00:45:33,970
of evidence that guy was in the hospital

998
00:45:39,539 --> 00:45:36,759
we have all these medical records I

999
00:45:41,220 --> 00:45:39,549
think as you just pointed out I think

1000
00:45:43,380 --> 00:45:41,230
that's what the Dalai Lama is alluding

1001
00:45:45,329 --> 00:45:43,390
to he's saying hey in this case we have

1002
00:45:46,799 --> 00:45:45,339
all this evidence we know this guy is

1003
00:45:49,769 --> 00:45:46,809
telling the truth about his medical

1004
00:45:52,289 --> 00:45:49,779
condition right but also that we can

1005
00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:52,299
rely on his testimony that is to say

1006
00:45:58,079 --> 00:45:54,970
what he experienced in in this

1007
00:46:00,720 --> 00:45:58,089
transcendent kind of experience that's

1008
00:46:02,819 --> 00:46:00,730
reliable that's credible right and that

1009
00:46:05,350 --> 00:46:02,829
that you need to take that and and by

1010
00:46:11,260 --> 00:46:05,360
the way this is exactly what we

1011
00:46:13,690 --> 00:46:11,270
we promote as well that we you know that

1012
00:46:15,970 --> 00:46:13,700
the evidence even in the transcendent

1013
00:46:18,910 --> 00:46:15,980
aspects of near-death experiences is

1014
00:46:23,830 --> 00:46:18,920
valid and and actually there's the

1015
00:46:26,470 --> 00:46:23,840
vertical evidence there as well that can

1016
00:46:30,070 --> 00:46:26,480
be traced back to you know facts on the

1017
00:46:32,590 --> 00:46:30,080
ground facts on the earth and so the the

1018
00:46:35,650 --> 00:46:32,600
data Lama is is saying that for these

1019
00:46:37,300 --> 00:46:35,660
these experiences we have to be sure

1020
00:46:40,180 --> 00:46:37,310
that we're talking to somebody who's not

1021
00:46:43,900 --> 00:46:40,190
making it up but then we can then we

1022
00:46:48,070 --> 00:46:43,910
need to study that exactly so Robert

1023
00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:48,080
what has been the reaction so far to the

1024
00:46:55,120 --> 00:46:50,090
article you've published on the ions

1025
00:46:58,540 --> 00:46:55,130
website uh not not very much there's

1026
00:47:01,570 --> 00:46:58,550
been a number of well several people who

1027
00:47:04,950 --> 00:47:01,580
have written blogs that say yes this is

1028
00:47:08,770 --> 00:47:04,960
you know certainly certainly destroying

1029
00:47:11,020 --> 00:47:08,780
the district's credibility but there has

1030
00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:11,030
been no contact enquiries from the press

1031
00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:16,610
I've sent out a few few emails to people

1032
00:47:21,820 --> 00:47:18,290
who have written articles about the

1033
00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:21,830
district's article and no response

1034
00:47:27,490 --> 00:47:23,810
right that's to be expected I should

1035
00:47:31,180 --> 00:47:27,500
mention that I did try to contact both

1036
00:47:34,150 --> 00:47:31,190
the editor of Esquire David Granger and

1037
00:47:36,850 --> 00:47:34,160
Luke Detrick Luke Detrick got back to me

1038
00:47:39,850 --> 00:47:36,860
with a very quick email saying that he

1039
00:47:41,530 --> 00:47:39,860
respectfully declined the interview to

1040
00:47:43,240 --> 00:47:41,540
which I said well great what that you

1041
00:47:46,690 --> 00:47:43,250
know no problem why don't I just send

1042
00:47:49,660 --> 00:47:46,700
you five or six questions and you can do

1043
00:47:51,730 --> 00:47:49,670
an email response and I've yet to hear

1044
00:47:54,970 --> 00:47:51,740
from a man I never will never will hear

1045
00:47:56,260 --> 00:47:54,980
from him Manette so I think this is also

1046
00:47:58,750 --> 00:47:56,270
you know you talked at the very

1047
00:48:00,940 --> 00:47:58,760
beginning Robert about this pattern that

1048
00:48:03,160 --> 00:48:00,950
we see over and over again and what are

1049
00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:03,170
the patterns is you know attack the

1050
00:48:08,410 --> 00:48:05,690
individual attack the individual cases

1051
00:48:10,990 --> 00:48:08,420
don't ever look at the research as a

1052
00:48:13,410 --> 00:48:11,000
whole don't ever look at you know when

1053
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:13,420
Jeff long comes out dr. Jeff long and

1054
00:48:18,790 --> 00:48:16,970
compiles hundreds and hundreds of these

1055
00:48:21,130 --> 00:48:18,800
cases and does statistical and

1056
00:48:23,500 --> 00:48:21,140
I don't talk clap too much it's gonna be

1057
00:48:26,340 --> 00:48:23,510
kind of hard to hit on hundreds of cases

1058
00:48:27,940 --> 00:48:26,350
instead just try and knock down these

1059
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:27,950
individual cases

1060
00:48:34,360 --> 00:48:30,890
well another strategy I think is get the

1061
00:48:37,090 --> 00:48:34,370
story out there and then never respond

1062
00:48:39,550 --> 00:48:37,100
because the follow-up story never gets

1063
00:48:43,300 --> 00:48:39,560
the traction that the first story gets

1064
00:48:45,940 --> 00:48:43,310
right but in a way if the skeptics have

1065
00:48:47,860 --> 00:48:45,950
got their catchphrase about Evan

1066
00:48:51,070 --> 00:48:47,870
Alexander now and whenever that

1067
00:48:54,580 --> 00:48:51,080
catchphrase is brought up then my

1068
00:48:57,010 --> 00:48:54,590
article can be used as a counter at

1069
00:49:00,850 --> 00:48:57,020
least there's that and hopefully people

1070
00:49:02,530 --> 00:49:00,860
who really want to investigate and

1071
00:49:04,660 --> 00:49:02,540
really do want to nudge a little bit

1072
00:49:07,750 --> 00:49:04,670
closer to the truth whatever that means

1073
00:49:11,020 --> 00:49:07,760
to them can follow the path because it's

1074
00:49:13,090 --> 00:49:11,030
really not up to us or anyone else to

1075
00:49:16,540 --> 00:49:13,100
convince someone or try and win them

1076
00:49:18,310 --> 00:49:16,550
over all we can do or lay the data out

1077
00:49:20,550 --> 00:49:18,320
there and let people have their own

1078
00:49:22,990 --> 00:49:20,560
journey through it and to that extent

1079
00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:23,000
you and Suzanne have done a great

1080
00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:26,570
service I think in both upping the ante

1081
00:49:32,380 --> 00:49:28,850
internal in terms of journalistic

1082
00:49:34,690 --> 00:49:32,390
integrity and maybe exposing the larger

1083
00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:34,700
picture of what's going on with this

1084
00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:38,330
culture war battle about consciousness

1085
00:49:42,070 --> 00:49:40,610
and survival of consciousness which is

1086
00:49:42,550 --> 00:49:42,080
really what's at the heart of this whole

1087
00:49:45,220 --> 00:49:42,560
thing

1088
00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:45,230
well great work thanks again so much for

1089
00:49:49,240 --> 00:49:47,330
this article we'll be sure to post it

1090
00:49:51,700 --> 00:49:49,250
along with a link to your excellent

1091
00:49:54,610 --> 00:49:51,710
website where people can check out many

1092
00:49:55,780 --> 00:49:54,620
of your other interesting presentations

1093
00:49:57,880 --> 00:49:55,790
you have some great You Tube

1094
00:50:00,250 --> 00:49:57,890
presentations that you've done as well

1095
00:50:02,380 --> 00:50:00,260
as the writing that you and Suzanne have

1096
00:50:04,390 --> 00:50:02,390
done so we'll be sure to mention that is

1097
00:50:09,010 --> 00:50:04,400
there anything else we should mention

1098
00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:09,020
well no other than that I'm planning Jen

1099
00:50:14,260 --> 00:50:11,330
and I are going to be presenting a

1100
00:50:16,690 --> 00:50:14,270
workshop at the ions conference in a

1101
00:50:18,970 --> 00:50:16,700
week where is that at that's in

1102
00:50:23,740 --> 00:50:18,980
Arlington Virginia at the sheriff in

1103
00:50:27,310 --> 00:50:23,750
Crystal City hotel and on August 30th

1104
00:50:28,870 --> 00:50:27,320
and we're talking about the the solving

1105
00:50:30,970 --> 00:50:28,880
the mystery of consciousness through

1106
00:50:32,170 --> 00:50:30,980
near-death experiences and and we're

1107
00:50:34,599 --> 00:50:32,180
hoping that and we

1108
00:50:37,109 --> 00:50:34,609
have another researcher Kenny Arnett who

1109
00:50:41,049 --> 00:50:37,119
is going to be presenting with us and

1110
00:50:43,630 --> 00:50:41,059
we're hoping maybe that at an Alexander

1111
00:50:47,710 --> 00:50:43,640
who will be at the conference will at

1112
00:50:50,770 --> 00:50:47,720
least come in and join the discussion if

1113
00:50:52,690 --> 00:50:50,780
not actually to present part of it we've

1114
00:50:56,049 --> 00:50:52,700
asked him that and hopefully he can do

1115
00:50:58,780 --> 00:50:56,059
that in any case yeah that's if

1116
00:51:01,660 --> 00:50:58,790
anybody's interested in that they can

1117
00:51:04,599 --> 00:51:01,670
get the information on the ions website

1118
00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:04,609
i answ org well great and we'll try and

1119
00:51:09,099 --> 00:51:07,130
link people up to that as well Robert

1120
00:51:11,470 --> 00:51:09,109
well it's been great talking to you and

1121
00:51:13,720 --> 00:51:11,480
again congratulations on this excellent

1122
00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:13,730
work that you've done thanks again so

1123
00:51:17,859 --> 00:51:15,650
much for joining me today yeah thank you

1124
00:51:20,170 --> 00:51:17,869
for having us thanks again to Robert for

1125
00:51:22,510 --> 00:51:20,180
joining me on skeptic oh and thanks of

1126
00:51:24,250 --> 00:51:22,520
course to both Robert and Suzanne for

1127
00:51:25,750 --> 00:51:24,260
spending their time and applying their

1128
00:51:28,120 --> 00:51:25,760
talents to doing this kind of

1129
00:51:29,620 --> 00:51:28,130
investigation you know again folks step

1130
00:51:32,140 --> 00:51:29,630
back these people aren't paid they're

1131
00:51:34,240 --> 00:51:32,150
not not receiving any financial gain for

1132
00:51:35,410 --> 00:51:34,250
for doing all this they're doing it

1133
00:51:37,690 --> 00:51:35,420
because they have an interest in

1134
00:51:40,809 --> 00:51:37,700
pursuing the truth and that is indeed

1135
00:51:42,910 --> 00:51:40,819
admirable one question to tee up from

1136
00:51:46,420 --> 00:51:42,920
this interview and it's the obvious one

1137
00:51:48,700 --> 00:51:46,430
what drives this information war with

1138
00:51:51,069 --> 00:51:48,710
regard to near-death experience science

1139
00:51:52,569 --> 00:51:51,079
because it's really a one-sided war I

1140
00:51:54,579 --> 00:51:52,579
mean there's a lot of information

1141
00:51:57,190 --> 00:51:54,589
Moore's out there there's a lot of

1142
00:51:58,660 --> 00:51:57,200
culture bowels or around different areas

1143
00:52:00,490 --> 00:51:58,670
of science

1144
00:52:03,069 --> 00:52:00,500
there's evolution and intelligent design

1145
00:52:04,690 --> 00:52:03,079
there's climate science debates there's

1146
00:52:07,240 --> 00:52:04,700
all sorts of debates around science and

1147
00:52:09,069 --> 00:52:07,250
they often have two different sides two

1148
00:52:11,650 --> 00:52:09,079
different forces that are driving them

1149
00:52:14,049 --> 00:52:11,660
in this there's really only one force

1150
00:52:16,289 --> 00:52:14,059
and that's the anti near-death

1151
00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:16,299
experience science people the near-death

1152
00:52:22,120 --> 00:52:19,010
experience science people aren't driven

1153
00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:22,130
by some political or religious group or

1154
00:52:26,740 --> 00:52:24,170
some agenda they're just people that

1155
00:52:29,349 --> 00:52:26,750
have pursued an interesting phenomenon

1156
00:52:31,839 --> 00:52:29,359
this has huge implications for defining

1157
00:52:34,089 --> 00:52:31,849
who we are let's pursue it it's really

1158
00:52:35,500 --> 00:52:34,099
unique I think in that way if you look

1159
00:52:37,030 --> 00:52:35,510
at it of course you might feel

1160
00:52:38,770 --> 00:52:37,040
differently about that in which case

1161
00:52:41,260 --> 00:52:38,780
that's another reason to answer this

1162
00:52:43,270 --> 00:52:41,270
question and explain why you do see it

1163
00:52:46,030 --> 00:52:43,280
differently if of course the place to

1164
00:52:48,540 --> 00:52:46,040
answer this question to engage in this

1165
00:52:53,740 --> 00:52:48,550
dialog is through the skeptic Oh website

1166
00:52:56,050 --> 00:52:53,750
@sk EP tik Oh calm there you can leave a

1167
00:52:58,090 --> 00:52:56,060
comment right on the website or click on

1168
00:53:00,160 --> 00:52:58,100
over to the forum and join the

1169
00:53:02,170 --> 00:53:00,170
discussion over there of course you can

1170
00:53:04,630 --> 00:53:02,180
drop me an email or connect with me on

1171
00:53:06,040 --> 00:53:04,640
Facebook as well well that's going to do

1172
00:53:09,130 --> 00:53:06,050
it for this episode a number of

1173
00:53:11,770 --> 00:53:09,140
interesting shows coming up we have one

1174
00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:11,780
more in-your-face kind of skeptical

1175
00:53:15,430 --> 00:53:13,610
debate that we have to get through

1176
00:53:17,950 --> 00:53:15,440
because I did a bunch of them all in a

1177
00:53:21,340 --> 00:53:17,960
row and then we'll be moving on to other

1178
00:53:25,180 --> 00:53:21,350
topics so do stay with me for all of